Curse

greenough · Oct 19, 2015, 11:03 PM // 23:03

He basically took an idea i had years ago http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/g...t10478958.html and applied it to other area's that can be afk'd.

I wouldn't go as far as saying this is the best hero setup for all those areas, I've done them all with mesmers, discord, spirit spam and ranger/para combo, they all work well.

Every area is different and the builds can be changed to optimize them. A lot of places all you need is 3 heals on a sos rit and an e/mo where others you might need defensive skills like panic or shelter.

The dps player setup is off though, you should never need an ST and E/MO on the same team.

Zephyr of Light · Oct 20, 2015, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

First, the point about "lasting longer" is largely irrelevant. Fights in pve just don't last that long. A point that a few of us were trying to drill into people years ago on this site was that the best mitigation is death. If you can blow thing up faster, you will take far less damage(to a point), than if you allow the fight to take that extra 15 seconds.

I agree with this to a certain degree, but some casters like almost any hybrid necromancer tend to cripple and flucuate in energy so much that they struggle to kill fast in my opinion.
Best migitation is death, but if you can't handle certain encounters by incautiously overpulling or the DPS not being on point, or even have a lack of it (AoE) then those situations is most of the time a certain death if you don't have the protection or cc to compromise that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

As for the spells that leak through, isn't that what Shelter is for? If you plan to stop every nuke from hitting your party, why is the ST even there? Even without an ST, smart positioning and agro removes the need to stop everything. Forge is more than doable without an ST, let alone 5 mesmers.

I included the ST for serval reasons, its probably the best type of party wide defense that exists in GW, it has a global effect other then single target like most monk spells do.

ST has its weaknesses because Shelter only lasts for 8 hits (with 16 communing / 12 spawning) and 17 hits with Armor of Unfeeling. (Info taken from the wiki by Tub)

Balled, it would only take two good AoE hits on you're team to make it drop.
Flagged, it eases the strain by alot more as it takes damage more evenly then being spiked.
Flagging is also very important and nessesairy in most situations, thats where ST tends to prove its value.

But I hardly believe that people through regular gameplay will be flagging all the time or at any encounter just to make the ST be worth the slot in the long run.
The ST brings protection to the first two or three deep AoE hits you're party can take while left unflagged, also can cover a good amount of melee hits before the mesmers engage to controll the situation.
That makes the ST for me the reason its the first and primairy line of defense for this team.
This team does not have the abillity to divert damage too other targets, like spirit spammers or minions masters are able to do, but would kill the ST role in the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

I don't actually know what you're currently running as far as bars go so it would be difficult to suggest specific changes. From what it looks like you have a base of maybe 3-4 bars and swap out the rest situationally. If you post your current bars I'll give it a run through and see what I can suggest. Note that I don't have mercs so it'll have to be without those. I don't think this is too unreasonable considering a player shouldn't need mercs to clear areas, similar to how you shouldn't need cons either.
Also I'm fairly sure the game caps attributes at 20, even in HM.

My primairy pve charracter is monk, but not always fills its traditional role as Healer, I play many variations without the need (personally) for changing my primairy.

OwAS0YIT5gNgbETfXEdRME4i

OwES44JT3lYFhFiF7gxRWfzD

OwET4WqWV6uUUjngoIG067qYeAA

OwgiEyiMhLeNVO5DWNtJyMRDCA

OwUCIszEuoPzNlNopj1XTgcJ

OwcS4YPTLQ7itl2kWfuVuEyE

OwcS84PT0k3l6MHQNQ3VrgpZ

Checked thoroughly, and your right indeed with that attribute hardcap, made a wrong assumption there and took damage calculation out of play, as that assumption was made out of spell damage observation taken that went well over 350+ damage which excluded cracked armor (Searing Flames, Shatterstone, and various other encounters.).
So i'm indeed wrong on that part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenough

He basically took an idea i had years ago http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/g...t10478958.html and applied it to other area's that can be afk'd.

The dps player setup is off though, you should never need an ST and E/MO on the same team.

I basically ''took'' nothing as i'v made this team from scratch while taking PvE ''Metas'' and own observations of builds and spells in combination with stacking in account.
I was not even been aware that team you made existed untill you mentioned it me four months later.
You've already brought this point up and have too decline those as they are not well-founded.
However i do realise that im not the first person to have come up with something others perhaps have done aswell, but that does not mean this team is some copy of what already existed.
I'v fine tuned this team for my own specifications of what I wanted it to do in general.

What you should do or shouldn't is always up too the player itself, i'v encountered this combination to be having real ease with really heavy strain on a unflagged, and even a flagged team.

ChillOutDude · Oct 24, 2015, 07:32 AM // 07:32

how to get the third mesmer?
didn't play for few years hehe

Gentleman Xander · Oct 24, 2015, 07:34 AM // 07:34

You can change razah to any profession. Once you have him unlocked, go outside of GToB and on your left you see him, but you do not bring him with you, or else it won't work

Jeydra · Nov 09, 2015, 01:21 PM // 13:21

I was asked about this so I thought I'll comment.

Before doing anything, be sure to know what you're using the build for. This build is not going to win any speed contests, and if for example you are aiming to clear Vloxen's HM while playing, this is not a good build. On the other hand, this build was designed to allow the player to go AFK. If your idea of playing is to aggro a mob, tab out for five minutes, tab back in with all hostiles dead, move on to the next mob, repeat - if that is your idea of playing, then by all means run this build.

Having said that, I'll say also that I don't see anything new in this build for people who do care about kill speed. It's running several subpar builds that have been tried, tested, and rejected. Use this only if your main concern is whether or not you'll be going AFK. After all, if you're only going to tab back in after five minutes, whether a build kills a mob in one minute or three is irrelevant.

Zephyr of Light · Nov 09, 2015, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

if for example you are aiming to clear Vloxen's HM while playing, this is not a good build.

?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If your idea of playing is to aggro a mob, tab out for five minutes, tab back in with all hostiles dead, move on to the next mob, repeat - if that is your idea of playing, then by all means run this build.

Because you can afk (basicly anywhere) doesn't mean you should, but it just allows that for whatever reason occurs.
Aside from that it allows the player to be less (of a factor) interactive during events as it can run by itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Having said that, I'll say also that I don't see anything new in this build for people who do care about kill speed. It's running several subpar builds that have been tried, tested, and rejected.

Its nothing new indeed, simply because the builds have been proven to be the best for those professions involved (and their given roles).

All the hero builds used are builds that have received a excellent or meta rating on the PvXwiki which have been modified for personal taste but still fall in those lines, so you kinda lost me at tested and rejected part.

The only factor that increases the kill speed is the player itself, which haves a very broad variety of doing so.
Other then the players influence, the killspeed is basicly anywhere the same since only the mob health is a factor. (Armor becomes a second factor if choosing not to take armor ingoring damage, thus by taking most other profession skills.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Use this only if your main concern is whether or not you'll be going AFK. After all, if you're only going to tab back in after five minutes, whether a build kills a mob in one minute or three is irrelevant.

Going afk can happen at any moment and the time being can affect the survivabillity of you're team. (aswell the other teams like balance, physway, melee support, sabway, etc)
So saying its only use is good for going afk other then for its general use during playthroughs is irrelevant by itself.

Jeydra · Nov 09, 2015, 03:48 PM // 15:48

This build is not good for Vloxen's HM if you care about speed, because it's slow. You are using inefficient Ineptitude Mesmers, E/Me Domination spammers, ST Rits, dedicated healers, etc. It's known that these builds are slow. But if you only care about completion, then I guess they're effective enough (even though it becomes possible to use Koss as a Wammo with Mending and Charge if you only care about completion, which is why I would not approve of saying that the build is "good").

When I say "tried, tested and rejected", I don't mean on PvX, I mean here on Guru. You only registered here in 2013, so you probably don't know about these legacy threads, but in the past there were big discussion threads that powered some of the most important innovations in Guild Wars 7H. This was the time when people were learning to do DoA HM and UW HM with heroes, when people were figuring out Forgewight HM with H/H (that's heroes + henchmen, before the 7H era), etc. It was during this time that players - the good players at least - realized that Ineptitude Mesmers are inefficient most of the time, regardless of what the people on PvX rate it, and a host of other things.

About whether you can AFK or not: if you happen to have to go AFK during a fight (you spend a lot of time running between fights too), and you can spare five seconds, you can hit "Fall Back!", flag heroes far away, and go AFK. That's assuming your build isn't resilient enough to survive against the mob - against most of the game, being able to go AFK is a given, so being able to say "I'm able to go AFK and not wipe" is not much of an achievement. Even if you have to go AFK literally instantly against an area which your build can't survive, the worst that can happen is that you wipe, but good builds are capable of dealing with 15% DP. In fact 30% is usually still not enough to make good aggro important, although by 45%, it's time to get careful.

I stand by what I said. If your priority is on being able to go AFK, then these builds serve well enough. It's arguable that they can be improved, but at that point, "improve" does not carry much meaning, since there is no difference between killing a mob in a minute and in three. However if your priority is on speed, then these builds are pretty terrible.

Zephyr of Light · Nov 10, 2015, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

The worst that can happen is that you wipe, but good builds are capable of dealing with 15% DP. In fact 30% is usually still not enough to make good aggro important, although by 45%, it's time to get careful.

Which is why you can't afford too whipe in Domain of Anguish, Urgoz, The Deep, Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, and basicly any mission.

_

Besides this above, I think your trying to refer me of a thread back in 2007 started by Avarre.

Which I certainly agree with on some points, but disagree with alot of things he said, but keep in mind those statements are made 8 years ago, and times have definately changed.
I'm not patronizing mesmers, but simply how I and probably most people look at them today.

So I picked out a few of his statements which I think you are speaking of and agreeing with, and i'll be giving feedback on those said points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''Mesmers, while capable of multiple styles of play, do not do anything specifically well in PvE when compared to other classes. Elementalists have better AoE, Warriors have higher dps, Rangers have better interruption.''

Yet all those classes have been made obsolete in speed clearing due armor scaling.
Aside from the fact that Warriors and Dervishs hold a spot in certain teams purely for its AoE capabillity, more specificly how skills like Hundred Blades, Sand Shards, and Vow of Strength trigger on every seperate enemy to deal AoE damage. (Simply more then any other profession can, with the right amount of targets being affected and thus triggers made by said skills)

I disagree that Rangers have better interupting, especially if you take the flight time, angle, height, and casting time in account.
And mainly the flight time and height is a factor mesmers don't suffer from.

Yes their AI could be spot on to theoreticly have been able to interrupt a skill, but that excludes other factors said above which still have effect of its true effiency.
Its minimal, but its there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''When you block skills and capabilities, you reduce the effective intelligence of the enemy, as they can no longer do complex or efficient things. PvE mobs are already at 0 effective intelligence, and need very little shutdown.
ANet created a fascinating class that counters the skill of an enemy as much as their skills – but mobs can’t be made any less skillful, and efficiency is in abusing this fact more than in anything that can be applied to the foe.

I agree with this to a certain degree, making enemies unable to preform may reduce efficiency of the crowd controll mesmer to a certain degree, because it can't do more then it already does.
But a shut-down enemy, does not result in the mesmer being less effective if it reduces their damage capabillity to almost zero.
It simply translates into less energy used into Healing or Protection.

They still are able to deal damage while interupting and obscuring their use till a certain degree, just like Elementists, besides that interupting and obscuring is the elementists secondairy point of effect while their damage comes first.
Because armor is such a huge factor these days (in HM) its impossible to deny the fact that mesmers are able to do equal if not more damage under these circumstances, as elementists simply supply reduced (variable) damage, and mesmers do not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''You don’t need to attempt to control an enemy when the length of the battle is determined by how fast your spells destroy them, and not who cracks under pressure first. Disruption, the ‘reduction of enemy efficiency’ that Mesmers are meant to be capable of, is easier caused by Eles and Rangers. With monsters blindly wielding skills on recharge, and chasing those they see, the best way to reduce effectiveness is through simply abusing the AI, and then laying into them with force. No matter how much you shut down an enemy, it still has to be killed – and classes like Elementalists and Rangers can disrupt as well as deal massively superior damage.''

Best migitation of damage, is death, is highly agree.
But if you choose to have a party whos setup is designed to outdamage the enemy then you can last comes with its own sacrifice, if that fails then death becomes a certain thing.
It works in alot of places, but just not everywhere just like my hero team won't work in certain places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''If you tripled the size of the monster group, the Mesmer would be shutting down only a third of his foes, and the Elementalist dealing three times his prior damage – making the Elementalist nine times more effective.''

Disagree, mesmers yield the same area of effect (damage) spells elementists have that are either Adjecent, Nearby, or In The Area.
(Cry of Frustration, Esurge, Wastrel Demise, Wastrel Worry, Complicate, Mistrust, Shatter Delusion, Unnatural Signet, Chaos Storm, the list goes on and on.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''This is because most Mesmer skills are single-target''

The most offensive mesmer spells are AoE spells, so choosing not to take those makes them ineffective indeed, and as noted above there are plenty of damage skills mesmers have whom their primairy effects is control rather then damage (elementist).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''Rangers (broadhead/epidemic or conc/epidemic/barrage) are more capable at caster shutdown and interrupts. Elementalists can throw out more disruption and damage with chained meteor showers.''

I disagree with this aswell, as said previously the Rangers interrupt value relies on other variables mesmers dont suffer from to be succesfull.
The elementists effects are secondairy and not primairly used for its secondairy effect, because those skills get punished with higher recharge times.
This is in contrast with mesmers whom have faster recharge times on spells with their primairy effect being the elementists secondairy.
Hence why their damage is ''significantly'' lower then elementists, but since everything is armor ignoring it balances out nicely while elementists have to deal with armor rating in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''Mesmers, with increased direct damage firepower, maintained some place in PvE. However, with the removal of these AoE damage skills as viable options, ANet has essentially thrown the Mesmer out of an effective damage role, and put them on a level that I would not hesitate to call obsolete.''

Disagree, Mesmers are thé effective, reliable, and steady source of damage output when it comes too speed clearing and general dps that takes away the damage variable from other classes due too armor (Elementists and Ritualists).
This proves why Mesmers (imo) have become the most favored class when it comes to killing things fast(er).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''but 'efficiency' in PvE is how far you can spread AoE damage and mulitply the efficiency of your spells.''

Fast Casting (set at 10) reduced skill recharge (of energy cost 10 and above) by -30% excluding the fact you have Halves Chance on casting, and recharging from a 40/40 weapon set.
This comes in longer encounters valueable as it speeds things up both ways, may it be controll and damage.

Lets not forget that AI tends to scatter ONLY when it reaches a certain Y dmg per X sec, because then it makes the average dps of an elementist almost par to nothing when using DoT's with recharge times longer then they are effective in total damage done against an npc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''The Mesmer simply does not fit into any category of PvE efficiency'' – and for that reason will never be in true demand. This is not to say that Mesmers are incapable of succeeding in PvE – they work, and can work well. This is PvE, though, and if you want to run naked with henchmen in the Southern Shiverpeaks, you’ll probably still succeed.''

With the 7 hero change, all of that has been changed ofcourse.
You can go through any campaign in normal mode with starter armor being carried by heroes.
This point does become questionable when it comes to Elite area's where any form of controll is required to outlast the damage taken before you're party is able to dish out.
(Not taking in account you are a perma assassin that joyfully tanks all over the place being bonded far away from you're party)
^ But even if it occures that you'll be exposing your party to the threat of 50 balled Titans, any form of CC is always present to migitate any mistakes or aggro lost being made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

''ANet created a fascinating class that counters the skill of an enemy as much as their skills – but mobs can’t be made any less skillful, and efficiency is in abusing this fact more than in anything that can be applied to the foe.

Multiplying the amount needed that minimally is required to CC an opponent, does not have to be bad thing, or even the type of playstyle a team yields.

When I made Z-Way it was build on total control, knowing one Ineptitude and Panic / Esurge would be plenty for most teams as other proffessions filled their own prominent roles as damage dealer.
I decided to scale that up, and with that upscale of Defense, also comes with a condition which is ''lack of offense''.

And because (Hero) NPC AI is limited just like its enemy, its for me important that the roles MY heroes have, is too simply out-smart them by making them incapable.
Real DPS should be left to players, hence why heroes don't have access too PvE only skills, that would change the story entirely.

Because not all Defensive spells are just defensive, the side effect is armor ignoring (AoE) damage. (for mesmers)
Thats great, because it will work everwhere, and wont be migitated by factors other professions have. (like elementists)

Is that a bad thing, yes and no, it really comes down on what you think a team should pack, and most of those teams have the same values any speedclear team has, which is ''Kill before being killed''.

Thats really the catch of this team, the trade off was Risk + Damage for Less Risk + Less Damage, it gives you the chance to recover in situations most ''Kill before being killed'' teams would have whiped on, and that may result in encounters you'll have to be exposed too for longer (Whiping in DoA = Retry under the same difficult)

Pure damage teams only work till some degree, and I feel personally that a full controll team extends that degree to a point it becomes very survivable till the target(s) die.

__

Hope those were the concerns and/or facts you were speaking off in general.
This team is not fast, its just safer upto a certain degree, and probably far more then Pure Damage teams have.
Thats the give or take factor you choose to have running certain builds.

Whenever pure damage teams reach their breakingpoint by not being able to kill their target, results in a breach letting two or three heroes (Prots and Heals) to take the full strain of the encounter, that becomes the whipe factor.

Whenever pure control teams reach their breakingpoint by not being able to control their target, results in the entire team taking the strain by having to control again and protection / healing more.
That risk has become smeared across 7 heroes up from 2 or 3, this becomes the whipe factor here.

But since the risk and strain is spread to 7 heroes, it has more chance to migitate everything then otherwise only 2 or 3 heroes would be able to handle. (If choosing to say and run with no mesmers)

Ofcourse necromancers and elementists have some form of protection like Weakness, Blind or Wards, but those are skills any hybrid profession is able to absorb. (Since only Energy-management becomes the factor if such utillity is worth taking a slot)

With every team, its a give or take.

rovon · Nov 10, 2015, 10:15 PM // 22:15

I am not a great player....no please don't argue, I'm not. However, I have completed the majority of this game, including WoC HM, with my own hero team builds, but I have 8 kids and the time I have to play GW gets less and less every day. With this team build I am able to c space my way through the majority of the game ( unlike with your suggested builds Jeydra.) If I was a fat single man, living alone in my mother's basement, then maybe I'd have time for all of you're flagging and micro management malarkey, but I don't.
90% of the people who play GW don't have time for this either. Just because we don't play at the same level you do, it does not mean that we should have to suffer your elitist views on what a good 7H team is made of.

ALL HAIL ZWAY !!!

Jeydra · Nov 10, 2015, 11:57 PM // 23:57

No, I wasn't referring to the thread by Avarre. Here is one of them, although the images are all broken at this point: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10503613.html. Also, you have not answered the possibility of simply hitting "Fall Back!", breaking aggro, and going AFK - something that like I said takes less than five seconds to do. That's even if you actually stand a chance of failing. Of the areas you mentioned, in the first four rooms of Foundry HM you are unable to break aggro, but if you go AFK there you are going to wipe, so it's irrelevant. In UW HM, if you're against a hard quest (4H, Imprisoned Spirits, The Nightman Cometh, etc), going AFK will also lead to a wipe regardless of build, while if you're not against a hard quest, no good build will wipe. For the other areas you mentioned as well as the missions, you can easily break aggro most of the time. Even if you can't, you should not wipe even if you go AFK unless it's a mission like Dzagonur Bastion when you can't go AFK anyway.

Hero Mesmers are good - see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10481038.html. But you are using the wrong Mesmer skills. Dom Mes pwnz, Illusion Mes does not, and you recommend two Illusion Mesmers + Wastrel's Elementalists.

As for the idea that "it doesn't require flagging or micro", three years ago, people would criticize spiritway on the grounds that while discordway does the same thing slower, it doesn't require micro. Well, I'm pretty confident that discordway is faster than this build, too.

I'm not particularly keen about arguing the finer points of what Mesmers can do or cannot do. If you want proof that this build is not very fast, pick any area or mission, do it, take an /age screenshot, and I'll repeat with a more powerful build to show you the difference. I can even record a video of the run, if you like, so you can see just how much micro is involved. If you have no preference I suggest either Raisu HM or Tahnnakai Temple HM. You can add all the stipulations you want as well (such as no micro, no mob skipping, etc) as long as you do not involve consumables or stuff like Shadow Form tanking.

Zephyr of Light · Nov 11, 2015, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Also, you have not answered the possibility of simply hitting "Fall Back!", breaking aggro, and going AFK - something that like I said takes less than five seconds to do.

Its possible to do, hence why its included in the optionals.
I dont really know what your point is by asking if such thing is possible, ofcourse its possible as it is with any hero team build to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's even if you actually stand a chance of failing. Of the areas you mentioned, in the first four rooms of Foundry HM you are unable to break aggro, but if you go AFK there you are going to wipe, so it's irrelevant.

Right, but any team will whipe on a 50 titan patrol due incompetent general AI behaviour.
Besides i'v clearly mentioned you can only afk most stand alone bosses and only certain area's, any basic team can afk any generic encounter during normal mode playthroughs, thats nothing spectaculair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

In UW HM, if you're against a hard quest (4H, Imprisoned Spirits, The Nightman Cometh, etc), going AFK will also lead to a wipe regardless of build.

Ofcourse you will whipe in those spots especially in HM, i'v never said you are able too afk the four horsemen, or nightmans cometh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Hero Mesmers are good - see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10481038.html. But you are using the wrong Mesmer skills. Dom Mes pwnz, Illusion Mes does not, and you recommend two Illusion Mesmers + Wastrel's Elementalists.

The tier system didn't show any surprising results, because obviously everyone likes mesmer for what it can do - control / armor ingoring dmg.

I'v been requested to do Kappa HM a while ago, and even that has its reasons why a team could whipe, being attacked from four directions makes any AoE incapeable of controlling the situation, whipe in HM (without cons) is almost certain if the player wont get himself involved.

I'v whiped on Kappa HM on my first two attempts ever, haven't even touched NM yet.
But i'm pretty confident they will work better in NM, because as one person said : Anet obviously thought HM would not be an issue, yet it has been proven a real issue for alot of people. (enemy scaling)

I don't see reason why Illusion mesmers would suck, other then they only have a handfull of skills available that work - which are included in their builds.
Unless you can provide a theoretic diagram in damage I see no reason why they should be replaced for by example an Blind Surge elementist. (Except if the reason is ''Cracked Armor + 25% Armor Pen'', then you might aswell run with armor-ignoring all day long)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for the idea that "it doesn't require flagging or micro", three years ago, people would criticize spiritway on the grounds that while discordway does the same thing slower, it doesn't require micro. Well, I'm pretty confident that discordway is faster than this build, too.

Pretty confident and have actually testing it yourself are two diffrent types of knowing your stuff.
You are only killing one target at a time with discord, makes it kill single targets faster?, yes it surely does when it meets the conditions of target being under a Condition and being Hex or Enchanted.
Does it suck incomprehensible in situations where there is alot of packed foes?, i can't even.

Discord is more of a support/utillity damage skill for hybrids that can't do real damage with their own skills, but rather favor ''best of both worlds'' with assist damage while healing, protting, spawning minions, or.. you name it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

If you want proof that this build is not very fast, pick any area or mission, do it, take an /age screenshot, and I'll repeat with a more powerful build to show you the difference. I can even record a video of the run, if you like, so you can see just how much micro is involved. If you have no preference I suggest either Raisu HM or Tahnnakai Temple HM.

Actually took up that ''challenge'', but results may prove expectable.
I ran as usual the healer build with ZERO player damage support to ''speed things up'', other then taking one Fallback that i barely used.

But what does it actually prove?, i'v already mentioned that the severe defensive resulted in less offense, so theoreticly you are right from the gecko that this could prove slower then other builds.

This team is not build for speed as i mentioned probably a dozen times in my thread already, but plain survivabillity (while being able to provide some form of damage)

But still, here you go. : 11 minutes and around 10 seconds.

Jeydra · Nov 11, 2015, 12:02 PM // 12:02

If I remember right, Kappa HM got nerfed when they also decided to nerf WoC vanquishes (before that, VQing Minister Cho's Estate with WoC active was a nightmare), so beating it now is not much of an achievement. Discord may be single-target as well, but it still kills faster than Wastrel's. Illusion Mesmers suck because they're reactive and don't do damage if the monster doesn't attack (i.e. is casting spells, running around, etc).

For the Raisu screenshot: which NPCs did you use at the start? I did Raisu HM at some point in the past without the Celestial skill and using Cynn + Danika in like 7 minutes 24s iirc, don't have the screenshots anymore though: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=218 I will say that the 7min 24s time was done by pushing really hard. I ran past mobs without fully clearing them ("Fall Back!" helps), didn't pick up items, and so on. In a more normal run, 10 minutes should be easily done.

I'll go try Raisu HM later without pushing really hard, and post the first time I get. I'll be using Cynn and Danika, but no celestial skill.

EDIT: Actually on second thoughts it's a bit pointless to do this without also knowing what NPCs you're using as well as what other bounds you're using (e.g. do you allow running past mobs?). 11 minutes 10s is not bad, but not particularly fast.
EDIT #2: You're using five Mesmers, which isn't possible without mercenaries. Not saying that's against the rules (and I wouldn't run five Mesmers even if I could), but just pointing that out.

Quote:

This team is not build for speed as i mentioned probably a dozen times in my thread already, but plain survivabillity (while being able to provide some form of damage)

Like I implied in my first post, if survival + guaranteed clear is what you're aiming for, the very words "improve" and "good" are no longer well-defined. I can do Raisu HM with Koss as a Wammo with Frenzy Healsig. That does not make the build "good". Advertise your build all you want, but if survival + guaranteed clear are what you're after, don't call your build "good", mention that lots of faster builds exist, and emphasize that survival is what you're gunning for.

Zephyr of Light · Nov 11, 2015, 12:50 PM // 12:50

Havent flagged once and just auto-attacked things that stood in my way heh.
I used Danika and the tengu dude silverwing for the mission, im not even sure if those were npcs that result in faster playthrough because i picked those at random.

Illusion mesmers also take care of casters when they are shut down by the domi's as they will turn to physical attacks (wanding) and thus triggering Ineptitude and Wandering Eye.

And without any disrespect on all the replies i'v made, I totally agree that there are faster Builds around which i mentioned on the very start of the thread (that my team definately wont set general speed records), and people know there are faster builds around to tackle certain areas.
Yet those teams all have to be modified to function appropiately in the areas, while this team barely ever needs a change in skills other then personal preferrance.

Its just a matter of convenience and personal preferrance, and I really think this team is just good, infact better then any other team build in implies 5 heroes using the same profession (skills).

There is almost no room for improvement on the mesmer bars, making a single mesmer run Domination and Illusion at the same time only graduately reduces its effective damage output by reducing attribute stats.

But I do appreciate all you're feedback, and if you could make a similar 5 mesmer 3 random team i'd gladly would like to see that preform anywhere (in HM) without having to change skills (or for other professions)

Jeydra · Nov 11, 2015, 01:49 PM // 13:49

11:41, no micro involved except hitting "Fall Back!". I spent a lot of time killing things that didn't need to be killed (for example in the zone with the two portals, I could have just hit "Fall Back!" and run for the next zone; instead I just stood there and killed the mobs that spawned), and took detours to get to locked chests as well. The comparison right now is mostly meaningless since I don't know exactly what you did, so yeah. Depending on how many mobs you skipped, I'm decently impressed by your time, since given that teambuild + the fact you used a player Monk, I would've expected around 13 minutes.

I vaguely remember that when I did the 7:24 run, I stressed the build to the limit, and ran past as many mobs as possible. This is especially doable with spirits and MMs, since it's easy to break aggro because the mob is busy killing the minions and spirits. I also vaguely remember that I brought heals only on the SoS, trusting in Mhenlo, Danika and Togo, to keep the team alive, which is definitely a case of building for Raisu only (although in most VQs and even a few dungeons, this works just fine).

When you say Illusion Mesmers kill casters, you could also say that any kind of damage (like the EA Eles I ran above) also kill casters. That's because Ineptitude and Wandering Eye become damage spells, and they still only trigger if the casters are wanding - which they won't if they have other spells to cast, or if they're getting interrupted. Just like builds that rely on Visions of Regret or Spiteful Spirit to kill monsters, it is less than ideal because these hexes are reactive. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...ml?t=10365003&

It's a misconception that the builds I run need to change depending on zone. I ran this exact build against Vloxen's HM yesterday. It's true that I can't run this with any kind of speed against Destroyers and stuff, but when that happens, I simply use other heroes whose skill builds are already loaded (for example I simply switch out Zhed and Sousuke for Livia and Norgu). I personally prefer things that way; I may make micro changes but I seldom respec heroes entirely.

I can't actually comment on your build, because I don't have mercenaries and because I don't have a primary Monk, so take the following with a grain of salt. I would definitely drop some of the Flesh of my Flesh regardless for more proactive attack spells - you even have UA, why would you need more res power? I'd also opt for player damage build (you got PvE skills, use them) and swap out the Illusion Mesmers for two spirit Ritualists (which would also give you a recourse if you do die), or at least one of the Illusion Mesmers for another proactive midline damage dealer like a Dom Mes (just so you got more damage on demand).

All the best!

Zephyr of Light · Nov 11, 2015, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

http://i68.tinypic.com/2a9ryg6.jpg
The comparison right now is mostly meaningless since I don't know exactly what you did, so yeah.

Well i'v just followed the mission path, alt-tabbing creatures but not any running upfront to jump the cinematics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

[url]Just like builds that rely on Visions of Regret or Spiteful Spirit to kill monsters, it is less than ideal because these hexes are reactive. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...ml?t=10365003&

Its all mesmers can do right, sucks to be a mesmer in a full mesmer team heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

[url]I would definitely drop some of the Flesh of my Flesh regardless for more proactive attack spells - you even have UA, why would you need more res power? I'd also opt for player damage build (you got PvE skills, use them) and swap out the Illusion Mesmers for two spirit Ritualists (which would also give you a recourse if you do die), or at least one of the Illusion Mesmers for another proactive midline damage dealer like a Dom Mes (just so you got more damage on demand).

On the FoMF part you can suit it to your liking, i'm just running the ''basic'' version with res, they could have been EoE, FB or any other supportive skill like ''Never Surrender'', ''Never Give Up'' or whatever floats you're boat.

Personally the UA res is more of a secondairy factor for me to use it.
Since only UA will give +healing to anything, which also includes Heavens Delight & Divine Healing (116 party heal down from 63) - HB wont affect that type of ''healing''.

Any form of 2(3)x rit, 2(3)x mesmer with 1(2/3) necromancer / elementist / random has been made before.
Taking rits will not give any value that makes this team stand out.
Its picking already made teams and/or builds (from the h/h era) that toghether fabricates into something so common that basicly anyone uses these days.

Want to run 5 mesmers, but only have 3?, then Elementists allow you to do so without relying or choosing a necromancer.
Thats pretty new I think, atleast I don't know anyone that used elementists to primairly fulfill the role of a ''pure'' mesmer build before posting my team.

That makes it z-way, and not a niche version of something everyone runs.

Edit : I sense a weak link in letting heals (Olias) run res, while xandra has a skill that could take out both of you're only charracters that can revive the party.
I'd suggest dropping FB on the ele, while giving him res instead, so olias has a free spot for utillity/heals.

But thats purely imo haha.

Jeydra · Nov 12, 2015, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Your description is a bit vague, but I switched out Zhed and Sousuke for Dom + Illusion Mes while keeping everything else the same, and the clear time dropped to 12:16. Still not terrible, and in fact that's within the natural variance, but it's not something I like.

Giving Olias a res was a consequence of bar compression on the other heroes. The Mesmer bar is really cramped since I only have one, the two Eles can't carry it, and neither can the rest. It's worked decently though, since Xandra is usually the first one to go for a res if someone dies. I'm also a firm believer that Death Pact Signet > Flesh of my Flesh, since if someone dies I'm almost certainly under pressure, and that means the last thing I want is for another person to drop by 50% HP to res someone also with 50% HP. The drawback of Death Pact is there, but it's not terrible.

Now I'm actually tempted to attempt a clear faster than 7:24. Why not? It's something to do, and from my trials just now, it's not easily done either. I'll give it more attempts tomorrow.

dricboylan · Nov 29, 2015, 11:25 PM // 23:25

So I recently started playing and was suggested to read this. I am a Rt, I saw the heal build template for your first grouping, however I was wondering if you could help me fill in the empty spots, I still don't know much of what I'm doing. Thanks in advance..

Optional Skill slots :

Necro - Icy Veins, Reaper's Mark.
Ether Renewal - Shatter Delusion, Emphaty, Shatter Hex, Unnatural Signet, Spirit Pain, Complicate.
Panic - Power Spike, Spirit Pain, Flesh of My Flesh (2 Restoration), Enfeebling Blood (6 Curses), Fallback / Stand You're Ground (8 Command), Edge of Extinction (8 Beast Mastery).

Also, if you could help me with understanding of Armor.

"~Armor~

Head: +3 Communing, Soul Reaping, Estorage(2x), Domination(2/3x), Illusion(2x) Radiant Insignia."

So only superior for the rit? Everyone else just Minor. This is confusing me because of the x's lol... seeing theres only 3rits and your saying 2x on one an 2/3x on another I'm lost.

Zephyr of Light · Nov 30, 2015, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Not sure if you are speaking of heros, in that case every optional skill is viable to use generally anywhere or in situations you Prefer them to have or be used, so its up to you what suits you best, they are all pretty good choices.

If you ment the optionals to take as player heal rit then these are good choices (which are shown at the rit healer bar)

Optional skills : (Elite) Signet of Spirits, (Elite) Xinrae's Weapon, (Elite) Spirit Light Weapon, (Elite) Echo, (Elite) Expel Hexes, (Elite) Emphatic Removal, (Elite) Unyielding Aura, Vengeful Weapon, Spirit Transfer, Soothing Memories,, Recupperation, Recovery, Weapon of Warding, Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom, ''By Urals Hammer!'', Air of Superiority, Pain Inverter, Summon Ruby Djinn, ''I Am Unstoppable!''

Every hero has a +3 (superior) rune placed on their helm/headslot.
The x's were purely the amount you needed for your heroes. (i.e : two or three domination runes depending on the amount of Domination mesmers used, just as with needing two runes for the illusion mesmers, and so on.)

dricboylan · Nov 30, 2015, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zephyr of Light

Not sure if you are speaking of heros, in that case every optional skill is viable to use generally anywhere or in situations you Prefer them to have or be used, so its up to you what suits you best, they are all pretty good choices.

If you ment the optionals to take as player heal rit then these are good choices (which are shown at the rit healer bar)

Optional skills : (Elite) Signet of Spirits, (Elite) Xinrae's Weapon, (Elite) Spirit Light Weapon, (Elite) Echo, (Elite) Expel Hexes, (Elite) Emphatic Removal, (Elite) Unyielding Aura, Vengeful Weapon, Spirit Transfer, Soothing Memories,, Recupperation, Recovery, Weapon of Warding, Ebon Battle Standard of Wisdom, ''By Urals Hammer!'', Air of Superiority, Pain Inverter, Summon Ruby Djinn, ''I Am Unstoppable!''

Every hero has a +3 (superior) rune placed on their helm/headslot.
The x's were purely the amount you needed for your heroes. (i.e : two or three domination runes depending on the amount of Domination mesmers used, just as with needing two runes for the illusion mesmers, and so on.)

What would you potentially run, I ask because you made this so you've had an overall more successful experimentation, so I assume you have a personal favorite skill set for Rt Healer

Zephyr of Light · Nov 30, 2015, 03:23 PM // 15:23

I only play PvE with my monk because I have no other PvE chars that went through the game.

I think if you seek further build suggestions for player healing you should take a visit too www.pvxwiki.com